Re: ANREGENDE HINWEISE you asked for!!!!
Geschrieben von M.Walter Reinhardt am 15. September 2007 23:03:
Als Antwort auf: ANREGENDE HINWEISE you asked for!!!! geschrieben von PAVLE (HR) am 09. September 2007 15:07:
Dear Pavle Das,
Thanks a lot for your detailed answer. My daughter Felicitas was kind enough to translate your words into German so that I could easily follow. I have long thought about what you have written me. To me it sounds as if you wanted to tell me that devotion to Krishna is about all or nothing; that it implies to open and give oneself and ones life more and more to this consciousness. Parivadi Prabhu has already written in detail about associating with devotees and to me it makes a lot of sense, but how do I find a spiritual master? Does that happen by itself during the process of rapprochement; is it a matter of my own choice, or will it come to me in the form of a direct invitation at some point in time? I had already read the words of Prabhupada that you quoted:
„Therefore it is said, srutayo vibhinnau: the scriptures are different. So if you simply try to understand what is God by reading scriptures, you cannot achieve. You must approach a guru. Just like a medical book. It can be available in the market. If you purchase one medical book and study and you become doctor, that is not possible. You must hear the medical book from a medical man in the college, medical college. Then you will be qualified. And if you say, “Sir, I have read all the medical books. Recognize me as a medical practitioner,” no, that will be not.“
But I thought Prabhupada wrote his commentaries exactly for this reason: that everyone in the whole world is offered the opportunity of instruction by following Prabhupadas words as guru and spiritual master. It would be very nice to receive further comment on that.
Regarding the chanting I have to admit that in the meantime I ended up chanting loud since I noticed that my thoughts drift away easier during chanting in silence and I sometimes found myself having finished a round without knowing how it had happened.
I especially like your answer related to food offering. It adds up nicely with the words of Parivadi Prabhu and it brings to my mind something essential. I offer something to Krishna by accepting him completely and this means first and foremost to mind what Krishna likes, what he loves… In the beginning it seemed more like a ritual to me, but the more time passes, the more I see that the relationship to Krishna is the crucial thing. When I am a servant, friend, father or lover, my counterpart is more important than myself, then the satisfaction of his needs meets me more than any thing else in the world. Having this in mind I will not buy chocolate, if Krishna loves ladhu, to take your example. To me everything is about understanding. It does not exclude my faith, but it makes it easier to pacify my mind.
Our everyday life has changed a lot, is almost exchanged. At times it goes along with a great confusion, a kind of fog that makes the previous aims of life appear somehow shapeless. On the one hand I feel like something that was structured until now is dissolving, but on the other hand I feel that until now there was nothing structured. It is like meeting ones parents after many years: the excitement is huge, but one gets home!
Dear Pavle Das, I don’t know where my earthly path will lead me, but I know that I cannot walk it without Krishna anymore. In this sense I want to thank you dearly, just as I thank Parivadi Prabhu with all my heart and me and my wife Petra remain with a feeling of deep solidarity and love.
With best wishes,
Walter
I will post this text on the discussion board in English and in German.
Lieber Pavle Das,
für Deine ausführliche Antwort vielen Dank. Meine Tochter Felicitas war so freundlich, mir Deine Worte ins Deutsche zu übersetzen, so dass ich alles gut lesen und verstehen konnte. Ich habe lange darüber nachgedacht. Es ist so, als wolltest Du mir mitteilen, dass es bei der Hingabe zu Krishna ums Ganze geht, es darauf hinaus läuft, diesem Bewusstsein mehr und mehr sein Leben zu öffnen und zu schenken.
Sich mit Devotees zu verbinden, darauf ist Parivadi Prabhu bereits sehr ausführlich eingegangen und das ist mir sehr einleuchtend, doch wie finde ich einen spirituellen Meister?
Ergibt sich das im Prozess der Annährung, hat es etwas mit der eigenen Wahl zu tun oder ist es irgendwann eine direkte Aufforderung, der ich folgen kann?
Ich habe die von Dir zitierten Worte Prabhupadas
„Deshalb heißt es srutayo vibhinnau, die Schriften sind anders. Wenn du also einfach versuchst zu verstehen, was Gott ist, indem du die Schriften liest, wirst du es nicht schaffen. Du musst dich einem Guru annähern. Es ist wie mit einem Medizinbuch. Es kann auf dem Markt erhältlich sein. Wenn du ein Medizinbuch studierst, um ein Doktor zu werden – das ist unmöglich. Du musst das Medizinbuch von einem Mediziner an einem Kollege, einem Medizinischen Kollege hören. Dann wirst du qualifiziert sein. Und wenn du sagst „Sir, ich habe alle Medizinbücher gelesen. Erkenne mich als einen praktizierenden Arzt an,“ Nein, das wird nicht geschehen.“
bereits gelesen, doch dachte ich, er schreibt all seine Erklärungen eben aus dem Grund, dass jeder auf der ganzen Welt die Möglichkeit der Unterweisung dadurch bekommt, seinen Worten als Guru und Meister zu folgen.
Es wäre schön, wenn ich hierzu noch einige Anregungen erhalte.
Zum Chanten muss ich sagen, habe ich mittlerweile selbst die Erfahrung gemacht laut zu chanten, da mein Geist im Stillen tatsächlich leichter wandern geht und ich manchmal am Ende einer Runde angekommen bin und gar nicht weiß, wie.
Deine Antwort zum Opfern der Nahrung und zum Thema Schokolade empfinde ich als eine sehr schöne Erweiterung der Worte von Parivadi Prabhu, denn sie haben mir etwas sehr Wesentliches bewusst gemacht.
Ich opfere Krishna, in dem ich ihn voll und ganz anerkenne und das zieht in erster Linie ein, zu schauen, was mag Krishna, was ist ihm lieb... Ich habe es Anfangs eher als eine Art Ritual verstanden, doch begreife ich zunehmend die Beziehung zu Krishna als das Wesentliche.
Bin ich Diener, Freund, Vater oder Geliebter, dann ist mein Gegenüber wichtiger als ich selbst, dann erfüllt mich die Befriedigung seiner Bedürfnisse ungemein mehr als alles andere. Dann werde ich natürlich keine Schokolade kaufen, wenn Krishna Laddus liebt, um es an diesem Beispiel von Dir zu illustrieren.
Für mich ist es oft ein Prozess des Verstehens. Es schließt meinen Glauben nicht aus, aber es erleichtert mir, meinen Geist zu beruhigen.
Unser alltägliches Leben ist wie verwandelt, nahezu ausgetauscht. Manchmal ist es mit einer großen Verwirrung verbunden, einer Art Nebel, der die bisherigen Lebensziele so konturlos werden lässt. Einerseits habe ich das Gefühl etwas bisher Geordnetes löst sich auf, aber andererseits spüre ich, dass bisher gar nichts geordnet war. Es ist wie die Erfahrung, nach vielen Jahren seine Eltern wieder zu sehen: die Aufregung ist groß, aber man kommt nach Hause.
Lieber Pavle Das, ich weiß nicht wohin mich mein irdischer Weg führt, aber ich weiß, dass ich ihn nicht mehr ohne Krishna gehen kann.
In diesem Sinne danke ich Dir von Herzen, ebenso wie ich Parivadi Prabhu von Herzen danke und ich, wie auch meine Frau Petra, verbleiben in tiefer Verbundenheit und Liebe.
Herzlichst Walter
Diesen Text gebe ich sowohl in Deutsch als auch in Englisch ins Forum.
>Geschrieben von M.Walter Reinhardt am 23. August 2007 09:06:
>
>So dear Walter, please accept my greetings and blessing of Srila Prabhupada. I am glad to learn that you bear with my English since I still cannot completely with Deutsch.
>
>First of all, I would like to thank Parivadi Prabhu for this answer which he gave you. Indeed, his reply is relevant not only for you who is relatively a neophyte in devotional service, but also for all of us since it reminds us about importance of association with devotees as a factor of spiritual practice which we can not go around.
>However, the nature of Krishna consciousness is that it is so deep and sublime that we can approach the same topic from various views and it still cannot be contained fully. One instance which exemplifies this is Vrindavana das Thakur's description of Lord Caitanya's pastimes in his Caitanya Bhagavata. Nevertheless, Krishna das Kaviraj has described the same topic in his Caitanya Caritamrita saying that still so many things remained to be told and after his description. It is because Krishna consciousness is unlimited and endless just as Krishna him self is. That is why there is always something additional what can be said and about chanting, offering food, ekadasis, etc.
>Therefore, although Parivadi Prabhu gave an answer to your questions I am using an opportunity to do the same. So, while praying at the lotus feet of Parivadi Prabhu, always desiring his mercy, I, Pavle das, narrate my answer, following in his footsteps.
>Now, I am so glad that your family has taken to Krishna consciousness, for it makes a mutual life easier and more inspiring. Unfortunately, there are many instances where devotees who join the Hare Krishna movement, confront with suspiciousness and rejection of their relatives which may make the whole thing even harder. Thus, you can see that your whole family is accepting the greatest boon one can be blessed by in this human form of life. This is confirmed in the satra:
>brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
>guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija
>“According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krsna. By the mercy of both Krsna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.“ (CC Madhya 19.151)
>So since your whole family has been blessed by bhakti-lata-bija, the seed of bhakti, your duty as a had of the family is to protect all of those little plants which started to grow. Just as sastras speak favorably about those who entered into the process of devotional service, it also speaks how pity it is if somebody drops it and let it loose. Like for instance there is a verse in Srimad Bhagavatam 4.20.26:
>„My dear highly glorified Lord, if one, in the association of pure devotees, hears even once the glories of Your activities, he does not, unless he is nothing but an animal, give up the association of devotees, for no intelligent person would be so careless as to leave their association. The perfection of chanting and hearing about Your glories was accepted even by the goddess of fortune, who desired to hear of Your unlimited activities and transcendental glories.“
> So, since we do not want this to happen, that you leave this wonderful association of devotees, I will be happy to give a few „anregende Hinweise“ which you asked for in order to help you become stronger in spiritual life.
>>Für mich gibt es momentan keinerlei grundsätzliche Fragen, da mir alles, was die Veden erklären, plausibel und einleuchtend ist. Ich bin verheiratet und Vater dreier Kinder zwischen 18 und 22 Jahren und meine ganze Familie ist dem Krishnabewußtsein sehr aufgeschlossen und zugetan. Wir unterhalten uns täglich über Krishna, lesen gemeinsam die Bhagavad Gita und andere Bücher von Srila Prabhupada und chanten. Trotzdem gibt es für mich Fragen, oft ganz einfacher Natur, die Euch bestimmt schon hundertmal gestellt wurden, die ich nicht beantworten kann. Deshalb stelle ich sie an Euch mit der Bitte, die eine oder andere Antwort zu erhalten.
>1. Immer wieder wird erklärt sich einem spirituellen Meister zu ergeben. Wenn ich von der Trancendenz ausgehe, dürfte zwischen den Schriften von Prabhupada und ihm selbst kein Unterschied sein. Ist es somit ausreichend, wenn ich dem was er schreibt bedingungslos folge?<
>I understand that you feel that currently you have no fundamental (grundsätzliche) questions but your first one is practically one of most fundamental subjects of all. So the explicit answer to your question, „Is it enough to follow the words of Prabhupada from his books?“ if that implicates not to approach living spiritual master for guidance, the answer is – „No. It is not enough“. One must approach the living spiritual master. As we sing every morning in the temple, yasya prasadad bhagavat prasado, – By the mercy of spiritual master we receive the mercy of Krishna. And, yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi – without mercy of spiritual master we cannot make any advancement at all.
>The following is one Prabhupada's statement about this subject. So you can take an answer directly from him. He said this point in many places. The following is quotation from his lecture in London, September 23, 1969:
>„Therefore it is said, srutayo vibhinnau: the scriptures are different. So if you simply try to understand what is God by reading scriptures, you cannot achieve. You must approach a guru. Just like a medical book. It can be available in the market. If you purchase one medical book and study and you become doctor, that is not possible. You must hear the medical book from a medical man in the college, medical college. Then you will be qualified. And if you say, “Sir, I have read all the medical books. Recognize me as a medical practitioner,” no, that will be not.“
>In the beginning, as Parivadi Prabhu explained, many practical things we can learn simply by being in association of devotees. And Krishna consciousness is not something which is only theoretical, but equally practical thing as well. We learn in this way things we would never learn just by reading Prabhupada's books. Besides, can you imagine how it would look like to learn how to put a dhoti on, by reading from a book? I can not.
>Devotees are very merciful, just like gurus are. And when they see new devotees coming to the movement they are specially glad and give blessing to such newcomers. So feel invited to take part in our affairs in local Hare Krishna centers in Germany which exist but for that purpose. Like for instance we have nice Krishna Tempel in Munchen led by Dayal Gauranga Prabhu. There is also one in Berlin, Cologne, Passau etc... So you can see which is a closes to you and gradually become habituated take part in it's activities on some regular basis.
> Not just that there are many temples and centers in Germany, but also many wonderful devotees who travel around the state only for the benefit of others. Like for example, Mangala Maya Prabhu!! He is very pure devotee, and although he is married and has a son, despite that he simply travels around Germany and preaches about the glories of the Lord in order to help and inspire us, conditioned souls, on our path of spiritual advancement and book distribution. That's how merciful and benevolent he is. J J I am sure that he would be willing to do a home visit also. J I hope you will met him soon.
>
>2. Wenn empfohlen wird 16 Runden am Tag zu chanten, ist es dann Voraussetzung auf der Perlenkette zu chanten oder geht es auch ohne? Muß ich laut chanten oder ist es auch still im Geiste möglich?
>Yes, please. Chant loud! It will be soon that I have been chanting for 10 years now, and I still often fail to control my mind and keep it fixed upon the mantra all the time although I pronounce it clearly. That is common to many devotees. So chanting in the mind is even harder, therefore it is not recommended. Without 'Perlenkette' it is not possible to know how much we did.
>
>4. Wenn ich im Laden einkaufe, kann ich dann alles opfern? Ich meine hier nicht Fleisch etc., sondern kann ich auch fertige Gerichte opfern oder müssen die geopferten Nahrungsmittel im ursprünglichen Zustand sein und in jedem Fall von mir selbst zubereitet werden?
>Offering food is part of meditation. So we want to treat Krishna as we would treat our selves, or our beloved baby, or even better. It is explained in Bhagavad-gita that thoughts accumulated throughout our lives will determine the consciousness in moment of our death, which further determines our next destination. Therefore we utilize all the details of Krishna conscious practice as an opportunity to think of Krishna in very loving way, and in this way we accumulate this desired thoughts. That it Krishna consciousness.
>
>5. In Prabhupadas Biographie habe ich gelesen, dass auch Fertigeis und Schokolade verboten sind, warum?
>You can eat if you like. It is not that you will go to hell or something. After all, who can forbid you anything? You are free to choose. And accepting Krishna cons. was also your choice. So Krishna devotee wants to please Krishna, not his tongue. We want to adopt all the elements of his culture. That is the difference between the Christianity and Vaisnavism actually. Christians belief is dogmatically based. They believe that if they act in such and such way they will go to hell, and if they act in such and such way, they will go to haven, havin' a nice life up there. But vaisnavism is not like that. It is a spiritual science. We will go to spiritual world, in God's realm because we will become like the citizens of that world even in this lifetime. We will go there because we will become like them in qualities. That is the difference. Krishna wears dhoti, so we wear dhoti. So Krishna does not like chocolate. Krishna wants ladhu. So we give him ladhu and he reciprocates. That is Krishna consciousness. We do not believe like Christians do – WE KNOW! That is the difference! That's what Prabhupada meant when he said that KC is not some religion, but science actually.
> And another sort of answer about chocolate which I can give you is a fact about the standards which factories of chocolate have. It is said that the farmers who cultivate cacao plant which chocolate is made from, they keep the plant in open places to get dry. Then insects, like cockroaches and grasshoppers come up on the platform and eat it. When the farmers come to collect the dry plants they collect the bodies of those insects also. And according to the national „standards of purity“ given by the factory or ministry, it is acceptable if the bodies of insects do not go over 4 or 5 percent of the mass. So when you eat your chocolate you can be sure that at least 3 or 4 percent of that chocolate mass are the dead body of insects. Do you really want to eat that?
>
>6. Wenn ich mit meiner täglichen Arbeit beschäftigt bin, wie halte ich meinen Geist dabei am besten auf Krishna gerichtet und wie opfere ich die Früchte meiner Arbeit? Ich weiß, oft sind bestimmte Dinge schwer zu erklären und mit der Zeit baut sich sicherlich von allein ein Verständnis dafür auf, aber für ein paar anregende Hinweise bin ich sehr dankbar.
>So, das wären erstmal die Fragen, die uns am meisten beschäftigen. Für jede Antwort bin ich Euch sehr dankbar und verbleibe mit meiner allergrößten Hochachtung und in Liebe Walter
>Another fundamental question! J The answer to your question how to keep your mind set up during your day is - by regulated practice of hearing and chanting. By strong morning programs.
> You must understand the difference between the karma-yoga and karma-yoga in Krishna consciousness. It is not the same, and we do not want you to become a karma-yogi who works hard and gives the result of his work as an yajna for God. We want you to become a bhakti-yogi. So that means that it is not really your money what Krishna wants from you. He wants your heart and your mind! And how can you offer that? By always thinking of him and never forgetting him. But it is not always possible due to our attachments. So in the beginning we start from the level where we are, being honest to our selves about our attachments. And it is due to our attachments and desires and consequences of those desires and attachments why we are actually working so hard in this world. But when we start with Krishna consciousness, we work to satisfy Krishna with the work we are attached for, having in our mind clear vision how the result can be dovetailed with the Lord's mission. That means to serve Krishna indirectly. And while we work in this way we pray that our attachments decrease, or if possible cease. And when that decreasment starts to manifest we will naturally change our activities from those which represent the indirect service for Krishna to those which represent more direct service for Krishna. That is the secret of karma-yoga in Krishna consciousness. And eventually, when your kids grow up, provided you continue with the spiritual practice all the time, you will be given enough spiritual strength to give up this work altogether and take to the service of Krishna in most direct way. That is our goal and yes – we can do it.
>I hope this meets you well.
>Your servant
>Pavle
>(Zagreb City, Croatia)